[Music]
okay three I
get
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me G Steve
Norris is a renaissance man a man of the
world more than 20 years ago he and I
toured Kosovo when nobody in Britain
knew whether a kovar was something you
should eat drink or lick a Liverpool
contemporary of Paul McCartney he
enthralled the Soviet era crowd with a
beautiful piano recital another
contemporary of his was Edina Curry she
claimed in her memoirs to have had a
trist with him rather ungallant Steve
said he couldn't remember it but that
was all yesterday and although he made
it into important ministerial positions
under prime minister John M's government
he never got as far as his talents
should have taken him though he was
twice the Tory candidate for mayor of
London and we're always delighted to
welcome him on board the Sputnik Steve
thanks for coming in it's been quite a
battle to get you here because London as
we record this is in a state of chaos
the Uber drivers who have been going
forth and multiplying have tripled their
fairs for the day uh the tube workers
are on their biggest strike for 10 years
a complete solid 100% walkout because
your mate the mayor uh part-time mayor
now uh has sought to introduce something
world changing for them uh 24-hour tubes
without a whisper of negotiation a it's
uh it's a bit of it's a bit of a mess
now London well that certainly is an
unfortunate position to be and I'm going
to be as diplomatic as I can because you
know I BOS has got enough problems
frankly from what I can tell but you're
right I mean the it's a great idea to be
running jubes 24s but you have to
negotiate but you've got to make sure
you're taking people with you and I mean
this is I think you know it's so
important in the public sector and J
know I'm going to say something that
people might be surprised about but when
I was Minister for transport I actually
went many times in the of a of a tube
train I don't know a more awful job and
it's because it's unbelievable tedium
interrupted by just short periods of
immense stress it's not a nice job you
know I know they get well paid but you
know it's not a job I think I would want
to do myself and maybe if people
understood that a bit better there might
be a bit more Sympathy for the guys
themselves one of boris's Ambitions is
driver loss uh trains of course we talk
now more or less on the anniversary of
77
when if we'd had driverless trains and
we'd had no staff on the platforms the
Carnage and the uh mass murder uh could
have been even worse but we ought to
just distinguish something um we've had
driers trains in London for donkeys
years I mean the the duckland light
Railway has been running for over 20
years driverless nobody cares of course
not of course the technology says you
don't need a driver but what you do need
is you do need somebody on the train
just because you know these are human
beings going on and off when you're
running 30 trains an hour that's a train
every two minutes you know the idea of
getting people on and off in a civilized
way making sure that nobody's caught
with a limb or you know a piece of
clothing stuck in a door that could
really you know cause Dreadful harm to
them all of that sort of thing really
does need human management you know the
best difference between London now and
the Paris Metro which we used to look on
when I was a minister as as being you
know the the the real Benchmark the
difference now is that it feels much
better to travel on the London under
ground precisely because we do have
people on the platform you know there
are human beings giving you human
messages sometimes three of them giving
you different messages at the same time
but much better that you go on the Paris
Metro now there are no people present
you see no one it's much more edgy the
whole experience particularly for people
who aren't used to it is frankly much
less Pleasant so why don't we build on
what's good you know and building on
what's good means building on the Good
Will of the drivers these are not guys
they're not wreckers they're not
instinctively record so let's hope this
is the last day we have chaos like this
would you stand on WE I'm a big
supporter of the black cabs yeah uh and
uh we had their uh union leader on here
just a few weeks ago where do you stand
on this Uber business this absolute uh
letting rip of Market forces yeah
threatening uh part of our National
Heritage I love London's black cabs you
know as far as I'm concerned we're the
only city major city in the world where
every black cab is wheelchair accessible
we can take disabled people it's a
system where the drivers speak the
language of the country and know the
city intimately so if you don't know it
you can show them a piece of paper that
an address on they'll get you there
straight away the meter says you'll get
charged a fair that's proper and
sensible nobody's going to be ripping
you off but I think it's high time that
tfl transport for London said look do we
want to keep the black cap I think there
are so many reasons why we do and if we
do then what have we got to do to
integrate technology with a service
that's the best in the world you know
there are all sorts of issues around
that because the real issue in terms of
uber is not the meter it's safety it's
personal safety uh where is the where is
the photograph that tells me that the
person who arrives is actually the
person that I thought was going to be
arriving how do I know that that person
doesn't have a criminal record for
example at the moment how do you know
insurance and how do I know he has
proper High reward Insurance how do I
know that his vehicle has a proper mot
how do I know that you know all of those
things that I ought to expect and that I
know I get with a licensed taxi how do I
know they're all there now if we can get
that right then I'll be quite
straightforward with you George I I
believe that in the end you know no
particular industry is sacred nobody has
a right to a living I mean it's uh you
know blacksmiths weren't terribly keen
on the pneumatic tire but tfl needs to
do more that's the point they need to
take this issue seriously and I don't
think they are at the moment totally
failing London is what the acronym uh
that Springs to mind we meet just after
the
budget uh George Osborne whether you
like his measures or not was a kind of
political and public relations uh
flurry uh he certainly established
himself as The Heir Apparent to David
Cameron who after all is told us he's
going to go on for another four years no
more um but Boris is in there when he
should be in the mayor's office but he's
in there he's in the cabinet he's in the
Parliament and running openly to be the
next leader what's your evaluation of
the the claims or is it is it going to
be Boy George or is it going to be Boris
well of course I think actually that
Boris is probably banking on the idea
that by now we'd be in the middle of an
election for a new leader of our party
and patently we're not I had David
Cameron lost the conservatives would
have said here is a man who couldn't
actually conin convincingly beat the
least popular prime minister in living
memory and then couldn't beat the least
apparently competent leader of the
opposition in living memory that would
have been pretty damning indictment and
we conservatives as you know are pretty
ruthless when it comes to getting
leaders who fail would have been a night
of the long nightes no you don't even
have to be long but as it happens that
was not what transpired David Cameron
supervised a clear Victory with a
majority and therefore the man who would
have fallen with him him now Rises with
him and by Common consent what you saw
yesterday was a bravura performance
that's the expression I think we see
most frequently in the press and what I
thought was interesting about it is that
he presented it as a great tax cutting
budget the uh office of budget
responsibility the independent office of
budget responsibility has very clearly
indicated it was actually a tax
increasing budget but it was a pror
performance and if anything is said of
Osborne it is said that he is a man with
enormous sort of tactical and strategic
ambition uh I don't know whether he'll
be the next leader I think you and I
know politics well enough to know that
you never predict five years in advance
what's going to happen but I think uh
Boris Johnson will now if he's got any
sense concentrate as much as he can on
the job that he getting paid for which
is to be mayor of London and at least
for the moment can park any other
Ambitions but how does he afford being
both the mayor and being an MP and in
the cabinet I mean don't don't the
people of London can can not demand for
him to choose one of the other yeah I
think they can I mean Ken Livingston of
course was famously an MP when he got
elected and uh he he was already an MP
though when he he was already an MP and
and um so you know Boris says well I'm
not doing anything different from Ken
but I think there is there's a slight
difference uh my own view is that his
very clear priority should be London as
it happens the seat that he now
represents is in London so he's double
the interest in being there and I would
be disappointed if we see too much Boris
in Parliament I don't want to see him in
Parliament he's not in the cabinet
incidentally he's invited to What's
called the political cabinet meeting
which is quite separate it's kind of you
know where do we how do we develop the
messaging and so on and fine I you know
it's an hour a week or an hour a
fortnite the real issue I think is he's
got to concentrate now on being mayor
for London that's the job that every
Londoner wants him to do yeah last
question uh because I know like me you
uh have friends across the aisle why why
we're friends yeah uh you're looking at
the labor party now choosing its uh
leader from the runners and Riders who
do you think's going to get it and why
I'm afraid
that I think uh uh I think I think to be
honest Mrs BS is going to get it I think
I Cooper will win and I'll tell you why
because I think at the moment labor is
not ready to debate the real function of
a left of center socially responsible
opposition to a government which of
course as George Osborne proved
yesterday is all very happy to steal
their clothes it amuse me just uh if I
may say so that uh the great uh you know
sort of punchline of his whole budget
was to actually increase their minimum
wage you know you can call it whatever
you like this was something that
conservatives viscerally opposed for
years when it was suggested this was
intolerable you know interference in the
free market and yet actually it's the
Lynch pin uh of his of his economic Str
stry um I I think the problem that labor
has got was is that with the exception
of Jeremy Corbin uh on the left and to
some degree Liz Kendall who is saying
look at the man who won you three
elections and wonder how he did it the
fact is if you don't want to go back to
Blair and you maybe accept that Jeremy
corin's appeal would not necessarily
play universally throughout the country
what are either Andy Burnham or I Cooper
offering that isn't really what I think
Mrs uh Kendall described as you know
miliband light and I'm afraid at the
moment I can't answer that question so I
think they'll go for a Cooper because I
think she's less contentious I think
she's playing a caner game in the
election than Andy Burnham but I'm
afraid I don't think that's the
long-term future for labor I think a
thoughtful serious left of center
constructive opposition that takes the
position that inequality in our society
is still a desperate problem and no
nowhere less so than in London you know
but comes up with solutions to that
inequality which don't rely on the idea
that you make the poor richer by making
the rich poorer because we know that
doesn't work so come up please please
give me some really creative ways in
which we can make a more equal society
that doesn't in the process stifle
Innovation and Entrepreneurship I think
that's the challenge for labor I don't
think any of the four candidates that
we've got at the moment are really
addressing that I fear that the least
worst option will be Mrs Cooper Mrs
balls Mrs balls indeed and I think so
leave it there don't you Steve
Norris I really wish you were still in
the front line of politics thanks for
joining us coming up next in Europe the
Kaleidoscope has been shaken the pieces
are all in flux where will they land
we'll be talking to the man who knows
best Professor Steve Keen stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik Greek
democracy may have hold the Euro below
the pimol line and the high Priests of
neoliberal financial Orthodoxy have been
putting the boot in I say Financial
Orthodoxy although these same high
priests think nothing of running off a
few hundred billion in quantitative
easing of an afternoon so Orthodoxy but
only when it suits them where will it
all end if Greece is forced out of the
Euro will the bankers and their
creditors take a heck of a beating and
if they allowed to stay will there be a
new wave of anti-austerity politics that
sweeps across Spain point Portugal Italy
and might even reach here nobody knows
better what's likely to happen next than
the high priest of unorthodoxy Professor
Steve Keen he joins us now Professor
this is a momentous weekend as far as
you can what do you predict for the end
of it I've reading you got to read the
entrails and the tea leaves to work out
what's happening with the way the
European unions behaving over this but
the noises theyve been making this week
seems like there's certainly a
substantial group of them that want to
drive out
why it really comes down to this
worldview they have which which which
called autol liberalism which is like a
a weird combination of a Austrian
attitude about the need for free markets
everywhere and keep the government out
of it with a Germanic touch that says if
we need the we need the law there to
make sure that these things are done
properly so you get this incredible
focus upon the legal framework of
Economics where it's a legal framework
for complete free enterprise but in a
essential part of what they believe is
when you sign a contract you must
deliver if that contracts involved
giving away a pound of Flesh you've got
to give away the pound of Flesh and the
contract they think they signed was
austerity in return for of course you
know it's supposed to deliver economic
recovery and my argument is well that
ain't what you delivered guys you
delivered economic depression but they
just simply saying it from their point
of view you signed on for this contract
and they were going to beat U Sira down
until they became basically the party
they
replaced isn't that a Triumph of
accountancy over economics if only it
was a Triumph of accountancy because one
little point I try to make is this
violates accountancy see if you think
about if I if I take 100 bucks out of
your pocket you go down 100 I go up 100
now I can't say to you why don't you do
the same thing because I've just done it
to you in Reverse we're on a seesaw and
it's that seesaw nature of financial
transactions which is why when Germany
says to Greece why can't you be like us
the answer is because you're like you
you if you there's a trade deficit
between if Greece has a trade deficit
with Germany then Germany's got an
identical Trade Surplus okay and what's
going on here is they're telling the
Greeks you've got to grow while the
government's taking money out of your
economy okay and at the same time the
public SE the private sector is taking
money out of the economy by either going
bankrupt or by paying back their debts
or taking it out of the country as well
so you've got two sources that are
taking money out of the economy and the
only way left to grow is by the by the
foreign sector by people coming in and
buying Greek Goods or Greek tourism and
the difference between those two is
gigantic about one or 2% of GDP now
after the huge depression in wages in
Greece until the latest you know the the
impact of the capital control sit in
that was bringing some money but they
were trying to take 3% of GDP out of it
out of the country by the government
running a trade running a a budget
Surplus which means of course to run a
budget surplus you've got to take money
out of the private
sector and the rate of decline of public
private debt was about 10% of GDP so
this just what do you mean you've got a
shrinking supply of money and they say
grow faster and it simply can't happen
so if accountancy ruled we wouldn't be
having this conversation it's it's it's
legality where they've got a distorted
vision of what is legal and this is sign
on a contract that means you've got to
do what we told you to do we haven't
deled delivered but that's your problem
but as gri pointed out in the
introduction the if uh if they come out
of the Euro if they don't pay the debt
it's the banks of Germany and other
countries like them that are going to
take a very cold bath in the case of
Germany I think more than 40 billion
yeah and there's a huge I mean people
some people who follow this know that
about 90% or 90 up to 93% of the money
that is so-called going to bail out
Greece is actually so they paid their
debts back to both to their creditors
which are actually the troa plus German
and French banks on a large scale so
they only see about like they might be
talking about giving them 7 billion well
they don't even see 700 million of that
as any actually going into the economy
itself so if this get shut down if if if
they get kicked out if they default and
they should if they are kicked out they
should default on the works oh
definitely it they should follow
Argentina's uh move yeah uh uh and uh if
as you predict and I think you're right
they are being pushed out of the Euro
though the legality of that even is
questionable they should definitely then
create their own currency default on all
the debts uh turn to Russia and other
bricks countries for such help as can be
uh afforded and uh and hope that being
out of the Euro actually begins to
generate some growth there will be the
trouble is and this is the reason they
haven't done it so far is they they know
they're too small an economy they know
they're too fragile and they know that
they have they don't get the tax off the
rich and you also have the re the
reality that the the Greek state became
a patronage state for a long time so
apparently under the previous
conservative prime minister whatever uh
300,000 new jobs have created in the
public service which was all a case of
basically feather beding and you know
buying patronage by providing employment
to particular political groups so that
side of things needs drastic reform form
and that's what Sirus is aware of they
know they've got to get that sub threat
out they want to do it of course they
spent the last 6 months in you know
crisis dour caused by the European Union
dribbling out the money each time trying
to push them further and further past
the the red lines they drew in the sand
they've got right back to their very
last Red Line surely the success of
Iceland should be a model We should
strive for how realistic is it for a
country like Greece who set in the Euro
Zone to succeed in that too um Iceland
has one enormous advantage over Greece
and that is got his energy exports it's
also a tiny country 300,000 people
booster tourism the energy exports and
they're reasonably okay Greece has the
problem that it's got a very distorted
industrial sector it's it doesn't have
anything like the the depth for example
that Ireland has where Ireland managed
to benefit when they put through the
austerity ringer by bio might add one
quarter the degree of of austerity that
was imposed on Greece uh that what that
meant was their costs dropped
sufficiently for the multinationals that
produce there to increase the flow
through of funds through the Irish
economy and the the gross GDP went up
quite significantly courtesy of those
effects which Greece can't take
advantage of nor the ones in Iceland so
if it wasn't for that I'm seriously
would have pulled out already no two
ways about it if they weren't if they
had you know even like twice the scale
economy they have they'd be big enough
to say right we'll take the we'll take
the roughy the rocky road so they're
afraid of the transition and they're
afraid of just how viable are they going
to be once they're back in a floating
exchange rate again but I don't think
they're going to have a choice I think
they're really pushing the mouth and you
you're an economist and a brilliant one
rather than a politician but how do you
evaluate how the Sera leaders have
played their hand uh in the crisis well
Yannis jiannis prob won't mind me saying
this now he wrote to me once that
they're trying they were basically Bally
we're we're being subjected to a
PCH okay and he said basically the
attitude of the European Union was they
didn't want serza to win so let's get
rid of them right there was it was a
political campaign right from the outset
to break their backs and to either force
them to become like the party they
replaced or to drive them out of office
and in that sense the referendum uh was
quite a surprise move they weren't
expecting it and there a master stroke
really yeah yeah and now of course they
there treating as though it didn't
happen oh and it's it's the
anti-democratic we respect the result
but pretend it didn't happen that's the
attitude yeah yeah you did well it's a
Pity he voted the wrong way but apart
from that congratulations on winning now
let's go back and do exactly what we're
doing last week yeah so the
Sera government looks fairly solid now I
mean last week at this time frankly it
wouldn't have been a surprise if they'd
been out by Sunday night yeah but now
they look uh strong they look strong I
just by the um the conservative media as
well they had really harsh media very
shockingly biased Greek private sector
media and even the state sector didn't
uh didn't actually do their Duty and
there's a lot of uh backlash now in
Greece about that uh but they do look uh
fairly solid can they survive even being
pushed out of the Euro they can survive
being pushed out of the Euro I mean
there's a sense of one thing you can
pick up from the Greek reaction to that
election was that there's a sense of
Pride come back because being put
through an experience like they've been
through I mean people talk about they
they they're responsible for the
situation they should they should pay
the price I've had this from some of my
conservative friends recently they don't
realize just how long the punishment has
been just how severe and just how to
moralize and giving people no sense of a
future to why the suicide rates you know
increased by factor of five or six in
GRE since this whole thing began and
also today's Greeks are not the people
who did this they're not the ones who
responsible it was the old rightwing
oligarchy in Greece that did this when
most of today's Greeks weren't even born
not quite that bad but nonetheless the
people in always
exaggerating the people the people in
power wanted want to drive the oligarchy
out if they were given even six months
Space by the European Union they would
have addressed the tax loopholes they
would have started to address the
feather beding and the public service
they would have changed the pension age
but that's ridiculous for the public
servants but they would not have reduced
the pension level itself and this is
what people don't realize the the
downturn in in Greece has been as bad as
a great depression or worse it's also
matched the conditions of the Great
Depression there are unemployment
benefits to less than 10% of those who
lose their job so 90% of those 25% of
the population that's out of a job don't
have any income what are they relying
upon the pensions being paid by their
par to their parents and they're talking
about cutting the pension are back
you're not affecting one old person
you're affecting their and their
descendants because half the young
people are out of a job one quarter of
those between 15 and 64 are also out of
a job it's it's forcing poverty on the
country and you're never going to get
any capacity to reform the tax system or
anything else while you're simply trying
to avoid running out of money virtually
on a daily basis well we'll see how it
works out this weekend you might have to
come back next week and uh uh evaluate
where we then our Professor Steve Keane
thanks as always
[Music]
welcome and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gri well
I've asked what about the Tory
leadership Boy George or Boris with this
picture of them both in China last year
and Chris stay answers I see Gideon's
glass is half full I've seen more
sincerity in the London Zoo reptile
house get is of course George osburn's
proper name you see why I changed
it okay and about um Greece grexit
brexit what will take it to break it
David sugar answers EU as an institution
only serves oligarchs not the peoples of
Europe I don't agree with that uh
there's a lot wrong with the EU but uh
none of it would be made better if the
EU were to disappear the Euro though is
a different question and that's all that
we've got for this week with which alas
means that's the end of the show but you
can stay in touch with us on Twitter at
rtor Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri
and from me George Galloway it's been
[Music]
marvelous